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Interview with Joseph Sargent
HBO
What was it about this story that interested you?
JOSEPH SARGENT
Well, the obvious is the fascinating obstacles that both men tackled. Interestingly, it's not just the story of one man's fight against Jim Crow and the hurdles he had to jump through, but it's also Blalock's struggle with his obstacles, which were basically medical dogma that normally would keep most doctors from trying things, from being courageous and gutsy enough to follow their instincts.
Blalock had a very strong instinct, and also a great ego that demanded a certain kind of fulfillment, and he followed it. And against all obstacles, against all odds, both men transcended those odds, transcended the obstacles, and succeeded; they succeeded brilliantly.
HBO
They really were pioneers in medicine... can you talk about where we are because of them today?
JOSEPH SARGENT
Aside from the cardiac advances and developments that have taken place, there's also the diversity we now take for granted. In every hospital, you see a cross section of virtually every minority that we have in the country, certainly a lot of black doctors that did not exist in Vivien Thomas' time.
And certainly the ability (for minorities) to be able to walk into, say, a grand institution like Johns Hopkins through the front door, which didn't exist in the 30s and 40s. So, the legacy has been very rich and very wonderful, and very progressive for this country.
HBO
You've done several films for HBO that are black-themed films. What is it about this subject matter that you're so passionate about?
JOSEPH SARGENT
Well, I guess it's because I've been in the civil rights movement for most of my adult life, and having watched as many marches [LAUGHS] as I have, and getting angry, getting very pissed at... the injustice of it all.
And it came to me rather early, just the feeling of it not being fair, without even knowing clearly and politically why. And as I politicized it more, and grew in my consciousness, that anger fed me, and certainly fueled an enormous need to express artistically.
And I was lucky enough to find the kind of material that I could do that with. Certainly you have great hopes of doing substantive material, and meaningful material that can contribute to the condition of man, but... I was lucky enough to get that many times. It served me well, I'm grateful for it.
HBO
What makes this particular film right to be on HBO, versus somewhere else?
JOSEPH SARGENT
Well, HBO has led the field, they've raised the bar on films with depth and meaning, and with that kind of substance. I doubt if any of the other networks would take this on, and certainly not take it on with the adult language and themes that this has.
And it's true, [LAUGHS] when you think of the line, "It's not TV, it's HBO"... that's a rather profound way of saying, we do things that are a lot gutsier and a lot more meaningful than most other stations.
HBO
Why did you choose to shoot it in Baltimore?
JOSEPH SARGENT
Well, the actual locations are here. And it was so exciting to be able to use Johns Hopkins, and the actual rooms where certain things took place. Seeing the corridors that carried the patients of our two leads. Plus, of course, some of the facilities around Baltimore that had connection to the original people involved. So, those people, in a sense, became our collaborators. As ghosts as well as the living survivors.
HBO
Now the research that these two men did revolved around blue babies. Can you describe what a blue baby is?
JOSEPH SARGENT
A blue baby is really the result of what happens when, and it usually happens in babies, although it can happen later years, too, eight, nine... pre-adolescent ages, probably as old as that. And I say, as old as that, because there isn't much hope for longevity when... there isn't enough oxygenation in the blood.
The blue look comes from blood that's not pumping properly out of the heart. So, in order to get to that problem, Blalock said, why not go into the heart?
And that was the incredible arrogance and audacity of a scientific mind, that said... why can't we do this? And everybody, of course, said you can't, and that's all an arrogant, wonderful, creative mind needs to be told: [LAUGHS] you can't do it.
HBO
And what did Blalock need from Vivien Thomas? Why was he so essential the success of the team?
JOSEPH SARGENT
He needed his hands, primarily. Vivien had an incredible genius for the dexterity that a fine surgeon needs. Blalock wasn't so much of a fine surgeon as he was a diagnostician, a practitioner, and he knew his marbles, very well.
But Vivien gave him the bare mechanics of being able to do it, plus the fact that he knew, Vivien, by instinct, knew certain techniques, and in fact, created some tools that weren't in existence then to do the job that had to be done, that had never been done before. So, not only did they have to cross into a whole frontier that had never been traveled before, but also, they needed the tools to get there. And Vivien Thomas came up with them.
HBO
Wasn't he a carpenter, before he started?
JOSEPH SARGENT
He was a very fine carpenter. And he used that discipline in his work as a surgeon. And in fact, miraculously, and due to his medical genius, he became a surgeon on the level of, and, surpassing that of Blalock, with no formal medical education.
HBO
How about that.
JOSEPH SARGENT
Yeah.
HBO
Alan Rickman and Mos Def. What did you see in these two characters that made you think of them?
JOSEPH SARGENT
You know at first we thought the disparate casting of Alan Rickman and a poet-rapper like Mos Def was perhaps extending the envelope a little too far. We didn't know quite how that was going to work because there was no way of being sure in the early stages.
And what happened was a wonderful, collaborative ensemble feeling; two people who come from different disciplines, different backgrounds and different cultures coming together in a wonderful, warm sense of men who are dedicated to breaking down traditions and dedicated to the frontiers of medicine as these two men were. And they jumped into it beautifully. And the results are pretty exciting.
HBO
You've talked about this film almost being about unrequited love...
JOSEPH SARGENT
Well, in a strange way, this is a love story. Their relationship was such that pursuing the same goal with the kind of determination and commitment that both men had made them two guys in a lifeboat, helping each other. Struggling with a common enemy, struggling with each other, and each other's egos, each other's needs and dignity.
As in Blalock's case, a southern member of the aristocracy, ignoring all of the environmental and cultural conditions that he had to grow up in, as regards black people, and ignoring all of that, because Vivien Thomas was too important to let go.
At one point, he throws him out of the lab, out of anger because Vivien Thomas from his point of view, screwed up, and he says get out of here. And then realizes that he's throwing out the best assistant he's ever had, probably the most brilliant scientific mind he's ever had in that laboratory, and certainly, a potential brilliant surgeon.
So, he goes after him and apologizes, because his volatile temper put him out of control for a while. But the yin and yang of that relationship is what I hope makes the film as exciting as we think it is.
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HBO STORE
American Splendor is the award-winning story of underground comic book writer, Harvey Pekar. Video/DVD. |
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