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HBO: It's said that history is written by the winners,
not the losers. But with this film you flip that
paradigm.
John Dower: It's true. We all know that Muhammed Ali
over the course of three fights with Joe
Frazier, technically, came out the winner. He
lost the first one. He won the second one in
rather controversial circumstances, and then
won the third in even more controversial
circumstances. So telling Joe Frazier's story
from his point of view was, as you say in
America, a no-brainer.
When we first approached him with the idea,
we didn't really know what Joe was up to. So I
went to Philly and spent some time hanging
out with him. The first time I met him I was
pretty nervous. He's an extraordinary
character. At times he was infuriating to film.
But those are often the best characters. He's
an iconic figure, a good, old fashioned, stand
up American kind of hero.
He shuffled out of the back room of his gym,
all resplendent. He likes his suits and hats
and he kind of looked like a sort of black Jay
Gatsby; just immaculate. And his opening
gambit to me was, where have you been? And
I said, well, what do you mean? He said, I've
been here since 1964. What took you so
long? It was a great opening line, because it's
true: he has been around that long. I felt
slightly embarrassed, but I'm like, well, I'm
here now. And over the course of several
months we just started filming.
I took me a long time to persuade Joe to
watch the Manila fight. I was amazed when I
heard he'd never seen it since the day he
stepped out of the ring. It took me several
months to persuade him, and I'm so glad I did
because it adds an extra layer of drama to the
film. He doesn't really have to say anything.
You just look into his eyes. It's all there.
HBO: What other things about Joe stuck you when
you first started filming?
John Dower: Sometimes I'd just film him sitting in silence,
not talking about it. I mean, he's got the most
extraordinary face, like something out of
Mount Rushmore. It's so full of character.
And we just decided to put those shots in. It's
a terrible cliche that a picture speaks louder
than words. But I think in Joe's case, it really
did.
HBO: In many ways Frazier comes off looking
classier than Ali, which is kind of a reversal of
the perception most people have of him.
John Dower: I think Muhammed Ali was, and probably
always will be, the greatest sportsman of all
time. But we do show that who he was is not
quite as straightforward as is often portrayed.
It was slightly more complicated and
manipulated than that. He's a contradictory
and complex character. And I think part of
the fascination of this film is people get to see
a side to Ali that really does exist. It's not like
we sensationalized it. It's there. And it's been
a bit of a redress.
HBO: What did you discover about the nature of
these fighters who are willing to risk their
lives for the sport?
John Dower: I'm aware that to just make a film about
boxing is not enough. It's bigger than the
subjects in this film. Boxing is an
extraordinary sport. I mean, arguably, is it a
sport? Is it something beyond that? In many
ways it's the purest contest of will.
There's a great quote from a boxer who was
one of Ali's early victims who also got taunted
quite heavily by him. And he said after one of
their grueling fights, there's so much
contempt and hate in the world and within
man. And men hire prize fighters to smash
the hate out of each other. And for a boxer it
was quite a profound statement.
I believe there's darkness in all of us and I
think you get that in boxing. And it's what
makes it compelling. I find it hard to watch
some of those final rounds in Manila. And yet
you kind of keep wanting to. It's that perverse
kind of thing.
And the irony is that in actuality the fighters
are working in the most controlled and
disciplined way. It's not like a brawl. It's not
like a street fight. It's the contradiction of
boxing. It can be extraordinarily elegant and
beautiful, even balletic at times. It's that
combination of violence and beauty that
makes it an extraordinary and unique sport
when it is being completed by two fighters at
the top of their game.
For the fighters it's about winning, isn't it?
It's about being the best. And there's no
purer test than going head to head with
somebody over a series of rounds in the ring.
It's an incredibly compelling spectacle.
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