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The director of Carnivàle's pilot talks about this cast, putting magic on film and why grown-up shows don't always end with a hug.
HBO: You've directed a number of Carnivale episodes for the first season. What do you think are the main themes of the show?
RODRIGO GARCIA: Obviously one of the main themes is the conflict between good and evil... Another extremely interesting theme is the theme of identity. Both leads -- Ben Hawkins and Brother Justin -- they're haunted by their powers, by their dreams. They dream of each other, although they don't know each other. So I think the theme of not knowing who you are -- trying to figure out what your place is, what your destiny is, is certainly one of the strongest themes in the series. The concept of good and evil, of course, that's a very vast concept that can be approached from many ways. But what interested me was the conflict of these two people who don't know who they themselves are.
HBO: In a battle of good and evil, is it difficult to pace the series, to know when it ends?
RODRIGO GARCIA: I think the more it moves towards our world, the more it will ask to end. Because you know, the more contemporary it becomes, the more I think it might lose some of its mystique. Right now it's set in the Thirties, which is a very difficult time. And it's close enough to feel familiar to us and yet far enough where we can float the magic in there and it still seems--if not plausible-- it certainly suspends disbelief.
HBO: The period almost plays a role in itself in the show.
RODRIGO GARCIA: It plays a great role. Because, obviously, we are taking one of the most difficult times in American history - and I think it's a time that because of its poverty, because of, the weather, the mixture of the old and the new, the modern and the pre-modern, it's a very fertile ground for prophets, both good and evil.
The radio exists and people can begin to communicate and ideas travel. But it's also primitive enough that that things can be misunderstood. There's still a marriage of new science and superstition. And I think that, together with the great poverty, it makes a very good period to tell the tale of two American prophets
HBO: It's interesting how many epic struggles are going on historically in the period...
RODRIGO GARCIA: Right, it's the period between the two World Wars -- you know, arguably the most fascinating cultural period, certainly in European history. There's the hangover from the first World War. And then in Europe, the birth and development of Fascism.
And, you know, I would be hard pressed to really form a connection between the world we live in and the world of Carnivale. But as it has turned out -- perhaps coincidentally, perhaps not - it is a world of two fundamentalist ideas, good and evil, that clash.
HBO: What about the supernatural elements of the show? Do you have an approach for special effect versus psychological effects?
RODRIGO GARCIA: That's always the tricky thing. How you introduce into a world that is basically based on a real world--the world of the Thirties, which is not that far back--how do we introduce the magic? My own approach, is to try to introduce it as naturally as possible. Not going to the magic world with big effects, with big music, with big digital things. But just to let the magic happen just as if it were just another dramatic element in a scene.
But sometimes the magic that happens is big and we have to rely on digital things. We try to integrate it into the world so that at least every character in Carnival believes in that magic. Every character leads a very daily existence but every one accepts that other world of the unknown, of the magical, of secret powers. And hopefully if the characters can take it for granted, hopefully our audience will take it for granted also.
You know, no one in the carnival marvels at the supernatural. They accept it, and hopefully that will eventually include the audience.
HBO: And do you find it tricky to not get hung up on the freakish side of the carnies? Can you get the audience to care about the characters as people?
RODRIGO GARCIA: It's not difficult at all because I think the audience gets used to everything. You know, the wonder of a bearded woman lasts for all of one scene. Or take, for example, the character of Sophie, she reads cards. She's communicating telepathically with her mother who is catatonic and it's the mother who reads the cards. Well, that's all very well and good. But once that's established, it does not sustain you episode to episode to episode.
What sustains you is the drama of a young woman trapped inside a bus in a traveling carnival, penniless, having to take care of this invalid mother. So again, it's not the gimmick. It's not whether a person is little, whether the giant is giant, whether the twins are conjoined at the hip. You know, soon enough they become a person just like any other. And if you don't deal with their daily problems, with their frustrations and aspirations, they can become a bore.
HBO: Hmm.
RODRIGO GARCIA: Just like anyone who is not a freak.
HBO: What would say is the aspect of this program that you find the most intriguing as a director?
RODRIGO GARCIA: I think the cast that has been put together is really quite terrific. I mean, the cast is huge. There are close to twenty series regulars. And as a director world of it is fantastic. I think Dan Knauf did an excellent job of creating this very peculiar world. It's part comic book, part Grapes of Wrath. I think he did a great job with that. And it's certainly a very interesting world to move in as a director.
But I would be lying if I didn't say that the greatest pleasure is to be in that world with the cast that we have. Because, again, the magic, it's all very much fun. The freakish aspect of it is very much fun, and the carnival, and the period - it's all very interesting. But week to week to week, if we're not engaged in the problems -- real, grand and petty -- of these characters -- we get used to everything.
HBO: Does the story get reshaped as the cast and as you get a hold of it?
RODRIGO GARCIA: I think the grand lines of the story are not reshaped. The actors play the characters that have been written for them. But at the same time, who they are and how they play them influences the writers. It goes in both directions. You know, there are a couple of characters who were not conceived originally to appear in every episode. But they have sort of imposed themselves and now they appear regularly.
HBO: The casting directors mentioned that there were a couple of people who just impressed everyone so much that you couldn't resist bringing them back into the show.
RODRIGO GARCIA:
I think, like in every show, you usually plan for a set of characters to be regulars and others to appear in only certain episodes. But I think all the characters here live together in this small carnival. You know, they all live under the same roof, as it were. So they're all fascinating and closely intertwined. There they live in this traveling tent. Because the characters are so interesting it's very hard to keep them out of the episodes. You know, almost everyone is there in every episode.
HBO: You've worked quite a bit with HBO. Can you draw any kind of comparison between this and Six Feet Under, or one of the other shows that you've done a lot of work on?
RODRIGO GARCIA: I think all HBO shows do share some qualities. HBO encourages the people who make them to take many, many chances. I know that is something that some networks claim that they want to do. But when you're on cable, you have much more freedom with adult subject matter, with adult situations, with language.
I've worked on, on Six Feet, on Sopranos and on Carnivale. And I would say that they all share that HBO desire to push the envelope as far as possible. You know, I don't think there's a recipe for an HBO series, except that desire to push and push and push. Oz is like that and The Wire. I haven't worked on those but I've seen them. I think that's what those series share. You know, it's: How can we push some more? How we can not make it a formula?
HBO: It's interesting to me because most people mention language and nudity and things like that. But for the most part, there is very little of it on those shows.
RODRIGO GARCIA: There's very little of it. Right, I don't mean sexual situations. I just mean adult situations.
I mean taking adult problems and adult situations to real levels. Dramatizing ideas, dramatizing problems to the point where we see things can not always work out. There is not always growth. There's no hug. There's seldom hugging and often there is no learning.
HBO: [LAUGHS]
RODRIGO GARCIA: Some characters learn. You know, some characters learn, other characters do not learn. There is no desire to teach a lesson. There is no desire to illuminate the audience. There is the desire to, to show real human conflict with all its ups and downs, all its good, and all its pitfalls. So when I say adult situations I don't mean necessarily sex or strong language or violence. I just mean adult situations that reflect adult life. Full of progress and lack of progress, growth and lack of growth, achievements and terrible frustration and big contradictions.
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Carnival Fact
Prince Randian was born without arms or legs. He was known as The Human Torso and would roll cigarettes with his lips.
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FATE Game
Try the strategy card game that puts a twist on Tarot!
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